AILSA CHANG, HOST:
The actor Poorna Jagannathan has played roles that subvert some of the most tired South Asian stereotypes we usually see on screen - like the mom she portrayed in the comedy TV series, "Never Have I Ever."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "NEVER HAVE I EVER")
POORNA JAGANNATHAN: (As Nalini Vishwakumar) Even though I won't let you date, I do care if you're heartbroken.
MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: (As Devi Vishwakumar) Yeah. It's about a boy. And I really, really liked him.
JAGANNATHAN: (As Nalini Vishwakumar) Come here.
CHANG: She's also played the South Asian doctor, but one with a side hustle, doing favors for shady characters played by Brad Pitt and George Clooney in the movie "Wolfs."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WOLFS")
JAGANNATHAN: (As June) Do you know what he took?
GEORGE CLOONEY: (As Margaret's Man) No.
BRAD PITT: (As Pam's Man) Not sure.
JAGANNATHAN: (As June) Well, it must have been some bad combination or something extremely pure.
CHANG: And now, in the new Hulu series "Deli Boys" by creator Abdullah Saeed, Jagannathan's latest role may be her most trope-bending yet. The show centers on two spoiled Pakistani American brothers who've inherited an empire of convenience stores, only to discover that the business their dad left behind is actually a front for a drug-dealing ring. Jagannathan plays a crime boss named Lucky, a maternal figure with a murderous streak.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "DELI BOYS")
JAGANNATHAN: (As Lucky) Oh, I know what you're thinking. Huh? Has Lucky actually gone crazy? I just didn't expect both of you to show up here. Come on. But I guess this is the kismet Allah chose for us. Go eee (ph).
ASIF ALI: (As Mir Dar) Eee.
JAGANNATHAN: (As Lucky) Very nice. Good boy.
CHANG: When I spoke with her this week, I asked her what drew her to this role of half Pakistani auntie, half gangster?
JAGANNATHAN: I have a teenage son. Do you have kids, Ailsa?
CHANG: I don't have kids, but I can imagine...
JAGANNATHAN: Yes.
CHANG: ...What it might be like to have a teenage son and wanting to be a gangster as the mom.
JAGANNATHAN: You have to be a gangster.
CHANG: (Laughter).
JAGANNATHAN: You have to out-gangster them, actually.
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: That's your only job. I'm only partly kidding, by the way.
CHANG: (Laughter).
JAGANNATHAN: It is...
CHANG: But you have to be maternal, but you also have to be a little bit brutal at times. What are you getting at?
JAGANNATHAN: Oh, yes, a bit of a spy, you know, so many combinations. When I read the script, it's based on opposites, right? The two brothers are, well, they're just opposite to each other.
CHANG: Yeah, yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: And Lucky's - how she expresses, be it love or anger, are opposite. So she's super - can be super maternal and, you know, just super sweet, super sweet. And then, you know, when she's angry or when she takes care of business, she'll just put a bullet through someone's head the next second.
CHANG: (Laughter) I mean, also - what? - you're in your 50s now.
JAGANNATHAN: Yes.
CHANG: You've had many, many years of acting experience. What is it like to graduate in your 50s to playing a gangster? Like, what feels so right about that at this stage in your career - to play a criminal?
JAGANNATHAN: I've been getting a lot of power roles for the last maybe decade, and I've always hated them. Like, just hated them.
CHANG: What do you see as a power role?
JAGANNATHAN: You know, the woman, like, saying, no, this thing is not right. What are you doing? Or firing someone or just, like, you know, in control...
CHANG: The boss, yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...Of a room, the boss. Like, I had to put Mark Wahlberg in his place. It was all really hard. Like, it was hard. The second I turned 50, it just came so easily.
CHANG: Oh, I love that.
JAGANNATHAN: Like, now when I enter any room, when I go through and move through the world...
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...It's a feeling of being rightfully there, and that's fine.
CHANG: What I also love about the show, beyond your character, is the show, it seems intent on breaking down cliches about South Asian immigrants, about the model minority myth. Like...
JAGANNATHAN: Right.
CHANG: ...I love how the whole front for this crime family is a convenience store. And, you know, South Asians owning convenience stores in the U.S. is kind of a stereotype, right? And I love how that stereotype is the whole cover for criminal activity in the show. Like, it subverts the model...
JAGANNATHAN: Totally.
CHANG: ...Minority myth.
JAGANNATHAN: Totally. And it's like, you know, America grew up on a diet of an Indian character owning a convenience store, which is Apu in "The Simpsons."
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: But that character...
CHANG: A very offensive character.
JAGANNATHAN: Well, it wasn't written by us or for us and...
CHANG: Or performed.
JAGANNATHAN: Exactly.
CHANG: I mean, it's performed by a white person.
JAGANNATHAN: Right, exactly. And so that was, you know, we never stopped to get Apu's real story. We never went beyond the stereotype. We - and so with "Deli Boys" we're really seeing a move from Apu, who was to be the punchline, to "Deli Boys," which is the plotline.
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: So it really takes that old trope and very much...
CHANG: Totally.
JAGANNATHAN: ...Subverts it, yeah.
CHANG: Like, oh, you think this is what we are? All right, go ahead and think that...
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.
CHANG: ...We're going to do other stuff in the background...
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah, it's a front...
CHANG: ...Underground. Yeah, yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...A true front. Yeah, yeah. But I also say, like, you know, South Asians have been always portrayed as the cab driver and the deli and, you know, terrorists.
CHANG: Totally.
JAGANNATHAN: And the "Deli Boys" now gives people the opportunity to portray us as drug dealers as well. Yes, thank you very much.
CHANG: Yay, congratulations.
JAGANNATHAN: Thank you.
CHANG: (Laughter) Well, I mean, that's another thing - the show, it is so funny. Yes, it has cultural references, but the show didn't necessarily have to be about a Pakistani family.
JAGANNATHAN: That's right.
CHANG: Like, Pakistani identity isn't the central driver of the plot.
JAGANNATHAN: Yes. And although it's a very strong undercurrent - the way we eat, the way we pray, where we pray, how we feed each other, what's - what we're doing in this - you know, all that it's very South Asian, Pakistani.
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: The way we speak, like when we're really angry we'll curse in Urdu.
CHANG: (Laughter).
JAGANNATHAN: But yes, so the undercurrent is definitely us, but - specific, but the themes are just ridiculously universal.
CHANG: Exactly.
JAGANNATHAN: And the laughter is universal.
CHANG: Exactly. I also adored how the woman is the one with the clarity and decisiveness and, frankly...
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.
CHANG: ...The balls...
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.
CHANG: ...To be the leader here.
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah, yeah.
CHANG: Like, pretty much every single man on the show is hapless.
JAGANNATHAN: Incompetent.
CHANG: Yes.
JAGANNATHAN: Just incompetent.
CHANG: Not you. How good did that feel?
JAGANNATHAN: I mean, I think Lucky is very much - Lucky is based on Abdullah's mom, Seema, who is a single mom, raised, you know, two boys. And she's an incredible woman. But Lucky is also based on our showrunner, Michelle, our producer, Jenni, who are - Jenni Konner, who are all in the writers' room. Like, they are all Lucky aunties through and through. And, you know, they've been in...
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...Rooms where they've always been underestimated. They've always had to take - you know, be in charge. They've always had to clean up men's messes. Like, that's who they are. And so, therefore, that is very much the essence of Lucky. She's a clean-up man.
CHANG: Well, all right, now that "Deli Boys" is out there, like, where do you go next after gangster auntie? Like (laughter), what's the next barrier-breaking role for you, if you could dream one up?
JAGANNATHAN: Oh, I think I might be in my gangster phase for a long time.
CHANG: (Laughter).
JAGANNATHAN: I can't envision getting out of it, actually. It just feels so right for this time in my life. I'm on to Green...
CHANG: You make the 50s sound amazing. If I could be in a gangster phase in a couple of years, I'd be set.
JAGANNATHAN: Yes, it...
CHANG: I would be thrilled.
JAGANNATHAN: The thing that it's so hard to explain is that it just comes to you. You don't...
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...Go to it anymore. Like, my favorite - the word I used to be so afraid of is saying no, and it is my favorite word now.
CHANG: Isn't it a beautiful word?
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.
CHANG: I cannot wait for my gangster era. Poorna Jagannathan stars in the new Hulu show "Deli Boys." Thank you for this conversation. This was so much fun, Poorna.
JAGANNATHAN: I am so, so grateful to be on here with you, Ailsa.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by 海角社区, Copyright 海角社区.
海角社区 transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an 海角社区 contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of 海角社区鈥檚 programming is the audio record.
